Sight Lines: How Much Education Do Surveyors Need?

Earlier this week, a reader sent me a link to a story about a Florida initiative to try to attract students into education programs for science, engineering and technical fields.

Earlier this week, a reader sent me a link to a story about a Florida initiative to try to attract students into education programs for science, engineering and technical fields. Audio from the interview with the former head of the governor's Education Task Force, Dr. Dale Brill, was posted with the article, and land surveying was one of the fields specifically mentioned as a high-demand career that could benefit from education reforms.

This is good news. However, the interview seemed to indicate that the emphasis in land surveying education, which was mentioned in the same breath as welding and other technical trades, should be shifted away from a four-year bachelor’s degree to an associate degree or certificate.

Brill, an education proponent and business advocate, said his comments were misconstrued. What he was trying to highlight, he said, was the flexibility provided by the state college programs, which offer four-year degrees as well as associate and certificate programs but are often overlooked in favor of the top-tier universities. With Florida’s licensing requirements mandating a minimum four-year degree in surveying and mapping or a four-year degree in another course of study with at least 25 semester hours in surveying and mapping subjects, it would be difficult to conceive that associate and certificate programs alone would allow the state to meet its needs for land surveyors. Brill emphasized that suggesting such an idea was not his intent.

Still, for the reader who sent me the link, it wasn’t a stretch to make that inference. A storm has been brewing in the surveying profession for quite some time. Some might say it has already struck, leaving a field strewn with struggling businesses and frustrated practitioners. Land surveying has long been a noble profession handed down through generations, from father to son or daughter, from mentor to apprentice. The education movement in some regions has been slow to catch on, in part due to a shortage of surveying programs that offer a four-year degree, but also, in some cases, due to a lack of perceived need. Do land surveyors really require a bachelor’s degree? Professionals remain divided on this topic.

Advocates of advanced education point to the increasing complexity of the field as a result of technological innovation. Understanding all the nuances of a changing profession clearly requires a broad-based approach that would be difficult-if not impossible-to obtain through an associate or certificate program. Opponents believe the education system is taking the profession in the wrong direction by emphasizing science over art, and technology over history.

This is a crucial time for a profession that must define itself in order to secure its place in the future. Although education is just one aspect of the debate, it’s an important one. Can the land surveying profession survive with the current approach to education? What else is needed to help the profession thrive with the next generation? How can education programs be tailored to attract more students and adequately prepare them for a successful career in surveying?

Professionals must come to a consensus on these issues, or there may soon come a day when land surveying truly is equated with welding. The future is at stake.

Much like the engineering profession, there are many different facets of surveying. However, as licensed professionals we are expected to be proficient in everything our licenses cover. This includes, for example, a PROPERLY weighted least squares solution for all ALTA surveys. How many licensed surveyors who do not have college degrees or college-level training understand how to properly weight a least squares adjustment? I would dare say that more than half do. This is just one of the many reasons why education is important to the profession (not the trade).

I would probably agree with those emphasizing a 2-year technical degree for surveying. 4-year degrees are usually bloated with humanities and other fluff and are driven by the college's need to collect tuition for 4-years. A 2-year degree, with subsequent mentoring and experience, should be plenty for survey. Welding, BTW, can be extremely sophisticated. You can get a PhD in welding, but not in surveying (yet).

I think a large part of the problem has been the either/or attitude that the profession has taken. I started in surveying 25+ years ago and have done work in numerous states. Some of those states have had just experience requirements (pretty high - 10+ years), others have had education requirements with few years experience. There have been issues with both. One of the problems in the 'experience' states have been surveyors who have perpetuated how they were trained and that could be very different than someone else who was trained in a different manner, so there is inconsistency in practice. And one of the big problems in states with education requirements is a lack of mentorship, so graduates are given more responsibility than their experiance can competently handle and that's why there will end up being numerous monuments set within a small area for the same corner. It takes both - education and experience - to be able to offer a quality product.

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Education and Surveying

Mike Ring

January 16, 2013

Survey Education

Mark Kennedy

How Much Education Do Surveyors Need?

Karen

Surveying Education

Kurt Lehnhardt, PLS

I think there is room for both 2 year and 4 year educations in Land Surveying/ Geomatics/Geospatial (what ever you wish to call it)and both should be promoted and supported. The question we are still debating in California is what level of education should be required before sitting for the PLS exam.

Kevin Riley

The real question sits in the fact that survey programs spend so much time emphasizing the technology, and not enough time teaching surveying. The basic principles of surveying have not changed. Only the means of achieving the results have. But we must remember where are roots as surveyor began... Not with Lidar, G.P.S. or Robotic Total Stations, but with the basic principle and practices of surveying. In my 20 plus years as a surveyor I have seen a greater understanding of these principles and practices from people that has spent years working their way through the profession,more than has ever been exhibited from a freshly graduated surveyor. Therefore in this surveyors opinion I would opt to hire a person that paid his dues in the field and had a Associates degree over any Bachelor degree anytime. Real life experiences and situation cannot be taught in a classroom setting.

Surveying and education

Bill Robenstein

I have been asurveyor for over 45 years and I agree totaly with Kevin Riley

Ron

When you sit for any professional exam the intent is to demonstrate that you have enough "learning' to meet the minimum requirements for licensure. I have no doubts that every person sitting for any exam has studied the types of questions used on previous exams and taken some form of "exam study course" offered by the local society to hopefully get some new blood into the profession. Once anyone has obtained licensure it is not a "golden egg" that ensures that as soon as the License is hung on the wall all forms of surveying are instantaneously known by the Licensee. I would hope any Licensee would know when to not take a job that lies outside their current skill set. I obtained my PE License in 1970 and my Survey License in 1980. What helped the most in getting the PE License was being thrown under the bus in Viet Nam by a Colonel who told me you were going to be the Design Officer for a PORT Construction Company before I had even seen the ocean except to fly over it to get there. That experience far out weighed anything I did after returning to civilian life. The Survey License was obtained by a working environment with an old time surveyor who wanted to pass on some of his knowledge to a newer generation. Minimal college courses, only the basic survey course and a route survey course as a freshman in college back in '61. For 33 years I have protected both licenses and never taken a job I didn't think I could do. I did an ALTA survey many years ago and had to do some study but it was done and accepted. So basically I believe that requiring a four year degree to sit really does is shut the door on many capable surveyors and limits our ability to build an all encompassing profession. The individual licensee has to take some ethical responsibility and know when to recommend another surveyor particularly qualified to do that work. My father in law asked me shortly after I received my PE License what it meant and I told him that I could do any work I fely ethically qualified to do including brain surgery, but I hadn't studied that yet and he might be my training dummy. He laughed.

Eric Stahlke, LS

Confucius: "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand."

2 year degree + experience

Terence Campbell

I agree with Kevin too. 2 years of school that is totally focused surveying will give people a solid base and also make them employable. Then a set amount of apprenticeship years in the "real" world plus passing all of the tests is what really weeds out the unmotivated as well as the people that don't have the knowledge. Let's face it college is getting ridiculously expensive, our trade is seeing a shrinking workforce due to retirement, one man surveying capabilities (robotics, gps and all the other pseudo-surveying mapping organizations)and the fact that if you tell someone its a 10-12 year process plus you have to have a degree to get a license they say I'd rather do something that isn't soo difficult and time consuming to be a business owner. Surveying governing bodies need to realize and do something about the fact that there are more surveyors leaving the trade then entering it.

2yrs vs 4yrs

Robert

I have a BSCE and 30 post graduate hours and have been surveying for over 50 years. I agree that 2 years totally focused on surveying is sufficient. I did not learn surveying in college, but on the job from professional surveyors. Thanks

2 year + experience

Adam

I also agree with Kevin and the others above that a good baseline education of Surveying should be 2 years, and a minimum of 2 years mentorship. This could also be coupled with the CST tests prior to taking the exam. I also agree with Terrence in regards to the pseudo-surveying firms and 6+ year process. I have worked with Surveyors with little field time that couldn't establish an occupation line if they had to, and the over-bearing process leads the bright ones to other pastures, especially if they don't have any vested interest.

Education vs. Learning

Cary Doyle

I've seen more than one PLS with a 4 year degree that could not find a property corner to save his soul.

2 Year Degree and Experience

Mark Campbell

After reading this article, I cannot see the real reason for a state to require a four year degree in Surveying. Personally, I think a two year degree (related to surveying or engineering), coupled with a survey apprenticeship program and on-the-job-training (a good 50/50 mix of office and field experience) should be suitable to meet the requirements of any State. I had focused on engineering related skills for my Associates; but I could not warrant going on to getting a bachelor's degree until I knew what I wanted to do with my life. When I took on a drafting position at a civil design firm I finally found my calling, but the state did not have a bachelors program close to where I lived or worked. I ended up supplementing my education with a State sponsored apprenticeship program where I learned from seasoned surveyors using university recognized text books. I honestly do not think I could have gotten a better education. I learned everything I needed to pass the FS, PS and State exams.

how much education is needed

Larry P

Sorry folks, the profession is dead. Look around at the next surveyors meeting and count the folks under 55. The folks that wanted coat and tie surveyors are now pushing for the consolidation of any group that looks like they measure anything to survive, such as aerial photography,geodesy or even now back to civil engineers. What happened to the love of the profession? Kids graduating in surveying have no idea whether they will even like the profession or not. It's about the money and that don't count when you are neck deep in alligators and still get the job done. Do you hink the public will stand around and wait till the profession regenerates. No, the legislatures will solve the problem once and for all and certainly not to the benefit of surveyors.

Field and Education

Terrence Maguire

I do not have a surveying degree or a PLS. I have been surveying for 3 decades in many different roles. The cost and time required for college have always been a major stumbling block for me personally. I think a 2 year degree would be sufficient coupled with field experience. Around here finding people that can do the work outside in the middle of nowhere thing AND are smart,responsible etc is damn near impossible. The surveying profession needs young people who can see a future with companies that are willing to help with training in a recognized apprenticeship not 4 years of pain and money to make $15 per hour.

4 year degree should be the baseline

Jim

I firmly believe that a 4 year degree plus experience should be the baseline for licensure. A four degree provides advanced training not only in surveying but also critical thinking skills. "Humanities and other fluff" teach critical thinking skills and add to the growth of young minds. Without question our profession could also benefit from formal business and marketing education. I have been a surveyor for over 25 years, have an AAS degree 2 BS degrees (one in surveying) and I am a few credits shy of my MS, and never took a course that didn't teach me something. Surveyors never cease to amaze me. Every other profession has determined that a BS degree is the minimum level of education required, many require advance degrees, yet many among us insist that a technical degree (or maybe less) is all that is needed for us. Wake up and smell the coffee. Our world is changing and our ability to stay relevant as a profession is under attack by evolving technologies. What made sense 20 years ago may not now. Does a degree automatically make one competant or professional, of course not, but I believe it is essential for our profession to continue and hopefully thrive in the 21st century.

Education

Steve

The most important reason to require a four-year degree is to enhance the public opinion of the surveying profession; otherwise it will always be considered a trade. With a four-year degree you're taught business practices and management in order to be successful. With a four-year degree you learn measurement errors and adjustments, drafting, GIS, map projections and the state plane coordinate system, law, the various types of surveys, etc.? This knowledge is needed in order to understand the technology that is being used by the profession today and to keep the profession moving forward. With a four-year degree requirement, you won't keep limits on the profession.

The field experience and the degree are necessary

Don Elder

The central problem for the surveying industry here in Florida is the general undervaluation of the survey product by both clients and surveyors. This undervaluation coupled with an anemic economy results in a bidding atmosphere not unlike a pack of ravenous dogs fighting over a tidbit of meat, in which even the winning dog leaves the fray hungry. Although the reasons behind the undervaluation of land surveys are diverse, the path forward requires that we as surveyors promote the worth and importance of what we do. Surveyors also must require a high standard of competency in practice from their fellow surveyors if the industry is to strengthen. Cutthroat bidding too frequently precedes shoddy and shortcut plagued work. Regarding educational requirements for licensure: a licensed professional land surveyor must absolutely have significant and diverse field experience. The art of finding a section corner with no ferrous metal in it beneath 3 feet of compacted red clay is not an art which can be learned from a textbook. Equally, cutting miles of line through punishing terrain will not teach someone how to write a business plan, how to perform rigorous adjustments on large control networks, how to negotiate the minefield of liability inherent in the work, or how to plan for disaster recovery and business continuity. Ordinary field mapping can be carried out by practitioners who do not have an advanced education. However, adequate responsible oversight of the establishment, retracement, and legal certification of land boundaries demands as a minimum the breadth of competency which a 4 year degree program (plus several years of field experience) provides. Such minimum expectations for licensees should rightly be considered as professional obligations to safeguard the interests of the general public and our industry colleagues.

Gregg

Congratulations Jim & Steve, you are the only ones to get it right. Surveying is not a trade and should not be treated as such. All I here is blithering about measurements and technology. As a professional Land Surveyor I believe that I am to be an Expert in Land Law. I have never heard of an Attorney receiving their Law License with an Associate degree and 10 years experience. I am a Professional Land Surveyor and sick and tired as being referred to "as just a Surveyor". In my youth I received a BS from the College of Agriculture. For the life of me I could not understand why my classmates were perusing a BS degree to return home to the farm. For that matter why would you need a BS in Turf Grass, Dairy Science, Agronomy, or many of the other Ag programs but "WOW" my eyes were opened. We need to open our eyes and understand the surveying is not a trade rather a Profession. For those of you who think Surveying is nothing more than Deed staking maybe its time for you to find a new occupation. I had to make huge sacrifices to return to college for my surveying degree, but am glad that I did. Now I can hold my head high when I say that I am a "Professional Land Surveyor".

The need for bachelor degree in Surveying.

Y. D. Opaluwa (Nigeria)

January 17, 2013

Surveying is a noble profession and one of the most dynamic professions you can find today, giving the current advancement in technology. Why underpricing our own product ourselves? This is very unfortunate, I used to think that this kind of issue with the profession is peculiar to us in Africa because of our level of technological exposure. After going through all the submissions on this page I came to realize that the issue is globalized rooted in the profession. If you have spent 20, 25, or even 50 years as a surveyor and all you can give in this matter is to recommend 2 years technical certificate to be a qualify surveyor, then you have to look inward once again and evaluate how much current you are with the current trend in surveying. Surveying is standing on a tripodal classification of Engineering, Natural science and Environmental Science, it is definitely more than an ordinary trade. However, if you want to limit yourself to service of just parcel boundary demarcation, then your technical advise will be ok. But even with your experiences as claimed are you all agreeing that our service is limited to Land parcellation only? Where do we put the science of surveying if we take just the trade? We in Africa are looking onto you for better offer than I am seeing here. So if old age is the problem with some of us let's check why the young want Bachelor and I don't think any thing less than the Bachelor degree will place the profession well under the present dispensation.

Necessary Education for Survey Licensure

Bron

I, for one am sick of listening to the reasons given for requiring a 4 year degree for licensure. So I can wear a suit & tie, enhanced respect for the profession, derivation of the formulae supporting GPS, learning how to prepar a busins plan or how to market oneself are not necessary for professional practice, nor do these thinge justify giving up 4 years of one's productive working life and the attendant expense. I would not considering anyone with a 4 year degre as his/her judgment and common sense would be very much in question. Further, such things as boundary law are state specific and can only be learned by practice. I would also anticipate that an employee with a 4 year degree would have an exaggerated idea of its value and thus expect a position, as opposed to a job, and expect to be paid far more than he/she would be worth. Reluctantly, I do agree that a 1 year certificate program might be beneficial. Such a program should teach actual operation of up to date equipment, theory of measurement, rudiments of boundary law and basic understanding of the various types of work a surveyor does; layout, topo, boundary, ALTA and support for design by engineers and (God help me) architects. This can go on forever, you get the point.

Surveyor Education

Bruce Flora, PLS

WOW. Great responses. Thank you to all. --Associate degree in surveying from Penn State 1975--Licensed in 5 mid Atlantic States--18 years working for others--19 years running my own business. Successful and satisfied. I could not have achieved where I am today with out my 2 year education--years of mentoring and field work. Additional skills acquired on my own over time from courses by experts in the Surveying profession and by manufacture training. I had to seek out the best trainers on my own according to my interests and needs that evolved over the years. More college 37 years ago could not help as I was too young and did not/could not know the area of practice that I wanted to master until I was exposed to working in the industry. My "expertise skills" came from training by successful people in the private sector. Cost more than college. What I did 37 years ago in college is a very small part of what I mastered over the last 37 years. College level education is a great "stepping stone". Smart people are good but wisdom takes time. When I hire, real world accomplishments are my guide to whom I want to work with and have in my organization. I have both in my company. No college but great experience 4 year college with great experience. I am more focused on their skills than where or how they acquired them.

Indra

I have been surveying educator for 30+ years. I think the problem here is most think surveying is only surveying property boundaries and prepare legal descriptions. Surveying/Geomatics is much more than that. A licensed surveyor may do boundary surveys for all his/her life but they also need to understand other areas of surveying such as least squares, GPS, GIS, etc. This does not mean they should not have experience. Experience combined with proper educations is what makes a complete professional. Look at other professionals such as engineers, lawyers and medical doctors. What is wrong with surveyor wearing a coat and tie. Do you want to walk into a city council meeting or a professional meeting in your muddy boots?

Surveying and Education

Jeff

If we ignore the importance of education, then surveying, as a profession, will be dead. What worked 30, 20, or even 10 years ago, will not work today. Education, however, can never be a substitute for experience. We should promote both.

Formal Education

Tom

I have had an interest in the topic of requiring a 4 year degree for several years, and have enjoyed reading the comments. Both sides to this question have valid points. Those with years of experience naturally have a different perspective than the younger generation. No matter what degree is required does mean the student is paying for the education rather than getting paid while learning. Being formally educated, does provide exposure to areas of surveying that he/she may not be exposed to during "on the job" experience alone. A comment on the responses: Firstly, a doctoral degree is available in Surveying. Secondly, one of the submittals that accepted the 1 year certificate program, I would recommend that you review your spelling and grammar skills.

Ricky Ramirez

I invite all of you to come on down to Puerto Rco were we graduate students in Land Surveying and Mapping in (4) and (5) years. Check my Alma Matter, Polytechnic University of PR. I graduated in 1994 and I have (6) courses in appraisal, we go thru law classes, etc and a minor in Highway Design along with my Bachelor in LS&M. The USA should pay more attention to this matter. Mount Rushmore...(3) out of four were Surveyors. THe piramids were layed out and constructed by surveyors and I could keep going on!

Bruce Flora wrote: 'Smart people are good but wisdom takes time.' Surveying is a profession that requires wisdom and judgment - it's not just about math and numbers. It seems like most of the comments here value a varying amount of education, but no one has questioned the value of mentoring. So that, at least, seems to be something we can all agree on.

Too busy for college?

John

I saw a number of comments about individuals who thought college was too expensive or who couldn't afford the time away from the profession. It took me 10 years of going to school, a lot of it at night after working all day as a crew chief or survey technician. All I can say is the degree was worth the "price". I have followed behind way too many professional surveyors who have been anything but! A 4 year degree does not mean someone is qualified to survey. But neither does one year experience 20 times over! If we want to be treated as professional surveyors and not blue-collar trades people it is time to step up and be willing to pay the price.

January 18, 2013

I usually keep my opinions to myself but the comment from Jeff that "What worked 30, 20, or even 10 years ago, will not work today" is something I tell my employees and clients everyday. I have to constantly change my business plan to keep succeeding in our "new economy". Actually the ever increasing regulations,technology growth and cost of doing business line of thinking has been around for awhile. The problem is that this also applies to higher education. All education is great but as I guided my children all education is not equal. Most schools are under the same pressures as business. Enrollment numbers = money and resources. Some of the larger universities have there best professors trying to get "grants" and publish papers with teaching left to Grad students. Most schools are teaching outdated technology and the private industry via manufactures may be a better resource. Schools are great for the foundation courses in math, science and critical thinking but sometimes career growth may be stronger via the private sector. Summer internships are a good way to guide your progress. Today's employers need skill sets that can grow a company. I have many highly educated people apply for a position and tell me they are in heavy debt and cannot find a job that the school told them were available. Most of the people who work for me have had more formal education than my associates degree. What I am trying to say is be careful in how much time and money you spend on education before you gain the realities of the 2013 job market. I would never want to discourage anyone but I also do not like to see the pressure of debt and disappointment on their face either. Someone above said night school. I too worked in the industry to "feel it out" before I invested in college. Be careful, spend your time and money wisely when choosing. A degree today may not have the same value in the marketplace as 30, 20 and even 10 years ago. Once you leave High School education is your responsibility. Spend your time and money well and you will do fine.

Surveying future?

January 21, 2013

I guess the question is 2 or 4 year college degree? It is my belief that anyone pursuing a 4 year technical degree will be way ahead of the game becoming an engineer. A 2 year ABET degree with 4 years progressive experience, or high school with 8 years progressive should be enough to take the exam. Education and experience however is not the problem with land surveying as I see it. Getting young people into the profession to start with is the real crisis. I read recently the average license professional is 56 years old. And if asked by students, or even your son or daughter, would you suggest the pursue land surveying as a career in the first place?

It is what you make of it.

Bryce

January 22, 2013

I believe that that in the end if Land Surveying is going to be what it was in the past, a four-year degree is required. Just because an individual has a 4-year degree in anything does not mean automatic success in a field or even a future. I know a lot of people with forestry degrees working for the same pay as a fast food employee. What a four-year degree gives an individual is a wider education than just what is needed...a well-rounded person. Of course experience is still needed. None of the other professions with four-year degrees have people leaving college with the perfect job either. Those people are entering the work force near the bottom of the ladder. Look at the clichÃ©s of medical and lawyer interns for example.

NOT either/or its BOTH

Arie

January 26, 2013

Modern land professional surveying requires both a good, well rounded education at a four year engineering equivalency level AND significant field experience. More of a focus on marketing and business would help prevent the low-balling bids, undercutting and teach us to emphasize our strengths and what we can contribute to society vs. how we are cheap and "efficient". The speed at which society and technology changes also demands that we, as competent professionals, frequently update our skills concerning both technology and law.

February 28, 2013

I think that too much emphasis is put on formal education. The colleges and universities have become some of the biggest businesses in the country. Students now take years to pay off loans. What would our country be like today if Abraham Lincoln needed a law degree to take his bar exam?

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