Point of Beginning Blog

Harry O. Ward, PE, is a registered professional engineer, a state licensed contractor and certified in machine control. He is president of Harken-Reidar (www.harken-reidar.com), a new infrastructure solutions company. He has been a member of the engineering faculty at George Mason University since 1997. He can be reached at hward@harken-reidar.com.

Technology Benchmark: Who is Left in the Surveying Profession?

January 27, 2010
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As I was recently updating my contacts in the industry, I came to a sad realization: Many of my colleagues are gone. While this is true to some degree in both engineering and surveying, it seems that in surveying it is particularly evident. The surveying staff at most companies has been decimated. Gone are the heavy hitters, the people who knew people, the men and women who had significant experience and, with it, the six-figure salaries.

It seems that they have been replaced by quite able but much younger people. The folks with 25-35 years’ experience have disappeared. When I place calls to them, their protégés now answer the phone. These are folks who obtained their licenses five to 10 years ago. I hear they are working for about half the salary of their mentors, typically $45-60K per year. I also notice that they are not complaining, perhaps because they fulfill an important role, have growth paths in front of them and are, indeed, employed.

What will the higher-echelon folks do? A few of them have told me of their plans. One said he wanted to open his own surveying business; however, he has lost the ability to perform fieldwork. He hasn’t done any serious field surveying in years and is not up on the field software nor the equipment that, ironically, has been purchased under his watch. He is looking for a young, competent surveyor who can do the fieldwork for a start-up salary.

Another said he would continue to search for employment similar to what he had previously, a management position dealing in high-end surveying tasks (mostly client related), supervising field crews or being a “technical chief” to review surveys before they leave the company. This particular fellow has been unemployed for two years now and nothing is breaking loose.

Yet another person told me he is looking for a government position in the hopes that his qualifications will trump younger, less-qualified workers. He has been through some government interviews and in one case was told that he was the only person who answered all of the interview questions correctly. He did not get the position and has no idea why.

As the conference season has opened up for 2010, I have noticed that attendance is surprisingly decent. There are two reasons for this-one is that continuing education is offered, and the other is the potential for networking. While networking is a smart thing to do, it isn’t really panning out; there are few jobs to be had in surveying.

From my point of view, the situation is both tragic and healthy. But healthy for whom?

The profession will survive because I believe people rise to the occasion. I believe the younger, less-experienced people will perform their jobs satisfactorily, and the tasks will get done. The profession has not really skipped a beat as far as everyday work goes, and the boss is now paying less for the professional result. So, for the short term, jobs will get done and done correctly. However, there has to be a price that will be paid for the “brain drain” that has been occurring.

Or does there?

We have noticed an interesting trend in our training classes during the past year or so. Gone are the people with lackadaisical attitudes. Gone are the people who show up late, leave early or skip entire days altogether. Gone are the people who don’t understand the fundamentals of surveying and drafting. Gone are the people who hold up the class because they don’t have the fundamentals to be in the class in the first place. Gone are the people who don’t apply QA/QC to everything they do.

In fact the people attending our training these days are serious students with an eye toward productivity, automation and quality control. The more-experienced, time-wizened surveyor often leaned toward checking computations by hand. These less-experienced folks can perform multiple computations using the computer and are using one automated process to check another. As a last resort, they might turn to the calculator on their cell phones to perform a manual calculation.

Another difference is that the attendees to our training seem to have more formal education in surveying, while many of their experienced counterparts did not. This makes sense since many states are now requiring a college education in order to qualify for a license. We have been getting questions on double stereo-graphic geodetic projections, geodetic conversions and the like. We are being asked to consult on advanced grading and data prep issues, multiple surfaces, subsurface conditions, the effect of field equipment on 3D data, etc. As a result, the curriculum for our classes has escalated quite rapidly in the past one to two years.

So in short, our industry’s face is changing; personnel are moving in and out. Those exiting need to realize that the employment game is vastly altered from the one in which most of us grew our careers. To turn the situation around, you’ll have to keep up the networking and renew the relationships you had with clients. Bring those relationships to a new prospective employer. Get trained on the latest software and learn about the equipment in use in the field. Put your skills back together and ask yourself, “Would I hire me and, if so, can I afford me?”


What do you think? Please share your comments below.
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Amen Bro

WV Surveyor
January 27, 2010
A "brain drain" is never a good thing, what price will we pay? -JC

Who's Left

Dennis Ernst
January 27, 2010
The Survey profession is certainly undergoing a change. I think there are a lot of great opportunities for the young well educated up-and-coming surveyor. There is a serious need for surveyors to actually resolve boundary issue instead of just handing them to lawyers to process through the courts. There is a big need for surveying/GIS people that can work productivly in both worlds and help both large business and govement automate mapping. Over time surveyor have chosen to limit their field rather than chose to expand it. In the West we still have title companies that write more legal descriptions than surveyor do. This often reduces their liability but may be a real mess to try to locate on the ground more less try to determine with the boundaries really are. I am glad to see our young people challenged with the task of stepping up early in their careers It will be that experince that will become their best teacher as they find their place within the survey community.

Who is Left in the Surveying Profession?

Erik Smydra
January 27, 2010
I think the real question is who is in the field doing the work. My 10 years of field experience and CST cetification is not, but the $10/hr guy that knows how to stake out a list of points is.

Interesting Column

IL-MI Surveyor
January 27, 2010
As one of those young (and hopefully "up and coming") surveyors you mention, I think a few of the points you have brought up have been going through everyone's heads for years. The idea of the aging professionals, a profession constantly under-selling itself, transitioning from a legal/boundary purpose-driven profession to a data-acquisition and -management profession, etc. All of those have been concerns of the industry for years. They're all valid points and definitely give you pause when you see a bunch of 30 year olds like me leading these types of project. But, I think the best point of what you discuss though is how this current economic downturn has accelerated that process. As the mentors that I learned from are all pushed out the door (or leave voluntarily), there's no question that it's leaving a giant vacuum of experience. It's scary to consider how easy it would be for the entire purpose of our industry to be swallowed up and divided evenly between lawyers, title companies, and engineers, but it is most definitely a reality. If the public continues to misunderstand our profession, and now is willing to pay even less for services they don't understand (or want), and they're having trouble finding anyone who can do it competently, they will find another way to get it done. That may mean changing laws or finding backdoor ways to deal with problems, but either way they'll likely be looking for ways to avoid our services rather than come looking for us, which doesn't bode well for an already ailing profession. It's a scary place out here right now. Last year at this time I was unemployed and living in a different state. Just a few months before that I was a licensed PS who was acting as an instrument man and swinging a sledge hammer, just glad to have any job in this industry. Now I'm at the complete opposite end of the spectrum, even more thankful, but quite aware of the fact that when I'm calling my own shots it's not nearly as easy or comfortable as it was when I had an experienced mentor in the next office. Thanks for the article. I enjoyed it.

where did they go

mike
January 27, 2010
I, for one, have been waiting for this time come. It's a natural correction that, as surveyors we need to apply to the situation. Will i work for less to challenge the upstarts. Heck yea. My experience, contacts and license give me an edge. I have everything I need and a nice nest egg, so I am ready to be of value. Maybe even work part time or as a mentor. Marketing is not for everyone. Presentations and oral skills are acquired and are essetial to any organization. It's not as bad as it seems to me.

Selling your profession.

Steve
January 27, 2010
The problem right now is that very few in the surveying profession charge a professional fee. The fees that i am seeing now put the prices for field surveyors at minimum wage level (or below. Firms or individual surveyors are charging 30% of what a bid would have cost five years ago, we weren't overpaid 5 years ago either. Most of the time we're considered a necessary evil.The people left in this profession are either grossly underpaid or they just love the profession.

Who is left in the surveying profession?

Dick Lawrence
January 27, 2010
The one point left out is that when you lose the experienced "mentors", the ones left behind are having to "re-invent the wheel" all over again. They will be cursed to make the same mistakes made by their mentors generations before. Except that in those times, the cost of those mistakes was measureably cheaper and was considered a reasonable learning expense. Today, in this "got to have it yesterday" approach, there is little room for error. Without the knowledge and experience of past mistakes, it makes it almost certain that these mistakes will be repeated. The costs of those mistakes could well be disasterous. What is needed today and tomorrow is an intelligent blend of technology and experience. This will certainly not be found at reduced salaries. The economy will rebound, it always has, but when the pace quickens, mistakes of this nature will match step. These "new wave" surveyors might find themselves between a rock and a hard place very quickly.

Nice Comments All Around

James Couts, PLS, CFedS
January 27, 2010
Yes, we need to work hard to keep our profession from being "swallowed" up. Nothing bugs me more than having a title company writing legals. I miss CA where every legal had to have a stamp, and therefore I could charge a professional fee to write one. I don't mind a young up and comer getting a management job, or an older more experienced surveyor keeping him from getting one. Its all competition, and competition makes us better. Steve nailed it on the head. We need to charge professional fees. Nothing will kill us quicker than bidding below the next guy, although some people feel they need it to survive. If there were one thing we could all do to help preserve our jobs and wages it would be to act professional. Lets show our clients what it means to be a Professional Land Surveyor. Lets show the lawyers, title companies, and engineers how we have more (surveying) knowledge than them and can produce a better more correct product. Most of all lets get involved in organizations that can protect our rights with legislatures and licensing boards. If we are "swallowed up," it will only be our own fault.

PE/PLS

IL-MI Surveyor
January 28, 2010
Interestingly enough Hank, as someone who has done exactly what you recommend (getting your CE, then progressing into Surveying), I'd strongly recommend against doing it. Including myself, I've worked with probably ten other guys in a similar situation (all with considerably more experience than myself). Most of them started off as PEs, went back to school for a couple classes and eventually got their PLS. I went about it a little differently, getting both degrees at the same time before getting any experience, but eventually becoming licensed in both. Almost invariably (as in, only one of those ten people I mentioned is the exception), every one of us is admittedly weak in one of those professions. Guys who started off as successful engineers and later got their PLS are typically poor surveyors, with very little field experience and almost no feel for the "art" side of surveying. Likewise, those that focus on the PLS side have very little interest in engineering and don't have the type of mindset it takes to become a proficient engineer. I myself admit that I would MUCH rather spend my time surveying than engineering. Although I may have graduated with a CE degree, and have passed the PE, my mind doesn't function (or at least enjoy functioning) that way. Now, I'm sure there are many many exceptions to my experiences, and I'm confident there are many people who are very good engineers and surveyors, and just as many who have both licenses and spend almost no time doing either (as they're working in the PM side of things)... but from my experience I would not try to be both a Civil Engineer and a Surveyor. Two very different (and often conflicting) mindsets are required to be good at them, and more than likely you're going to be doing one or both of those professions a disservice. Just my humble opinion, as someone who did go in that direction. Your last point (about the education, costs, and delay involved) is very valid, however. I do feel like Surveyors are too quietly taking the short end of the stick. But, if you're in love with doing that kind of work, the effort it takes and the pay you bring home don't matter much...

I am that younger replacement!

TX Surveyor
February 1, 2010
This could have been written about me! My boss was laid off 6 months ago and i was put into his place. I dont have the vast knowledge he had but as the article states I am making it... I hope i have time to learn on the job is my only fear. JHW

A generation gap

George O'Quinn
February 10, 2010
Hi Harry, Thanks for the article. We are losing a generation of surveyors to the economic downturn. When things come back, and they will, there will be a void. A missing generation that has left the profession and gone forever to wherever they can to put food on the table. Education and apprenticeship is vital to keep the profession energized, capable and ready to respond to the market demands. The tide will come in. The waiting is painfull. Thanks again for the article.

no sweat

Dwight
February 10, 2010
the GIS push button operators are in the process of taking care of all the relevant issues.

today's situation

iasnowneverends
February 11, 2010
the 20-30 something crowd probably has more CADD skills than field experience in boundary related matters, so with the seasoned ones being let go, they have some big shoes to fill. That is also something when you see title companies writing legals ouch!!

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